My thoughts on Proposition 8 results….

Ordinarily, I don’t speak on GBLT issues.  It’s not that I don’t have an opinion, but I never figured how it could pertain to my blog’s intent, however, I have changed my attitude and included my scope to include any and all issues out there.  Which brings me to this prop 8 ruling.

I have to admit, I do see things from the GBLT perspective.  I believe that this whole debate is a civil rights issue, not in the vein of the civil rights movement as many GBLT groups claim, but one nonetheless.

As an American, I have a hard time accepting that one citizens tax dollars should afford them more rights than anothers simply because of their beliefs and or sexual orientation.

I believe everyone regardless of ideology or background should be afforded equal rights across the board.

However, there has to be compromise on both sides. 

I understand the faith communities points well as I too adhere to what my scripture tells me about same sex relations.  BUT I believe that members of faith communities are being a wee bit hypocritical in their lopsided application of said scriptural mandates.  If we are to be so anti same sex relations, then we should be just as harsh for adulterers, criminals, liars, etc.

We cannot have it both ways picking and choosing our hot-button issues at the moment swating at gnats using our religion as a tool to propragate against those things that make us uncomfortable.

I believe scripturally that we have to afford people the CHOICE to be who they want to be no matter how sinful we as individuals may believe them to be.  God Alone is the Ultimate Judge.

Now as it relates to our Republic, we have to make up our minds as to what we want.  Do we want a Theocracy or a Democracy?  If we want a Theocracy than we should expect to govern as such.  That means shutting down all bars, clubs, etc.  Shutting down Hollywood and ensuring swift punishment to all who fornicate, steal, cheat on their spouses, collect taxes, etc.  Then we have to pick one religious law over anothers?  Will we be a Christian Theocracy where divorce and re-marrying is illegal?  Or an Islamic Theocrary, Judaic Theocracy, etc.

But if we want a Democracy than we have to accept that our laws must represent all people no matter their differences and as long as they do not commit any crimes.

Marriage has religious implications, but who has the monopoly on that word in the faith community?  When we use that word which faith group has the unique right to define what that is?  Does it involve a Priest, Rabbi, or Imam?  This sacred rite, should not be confused with the legal rights that are given afterwards.  Even after your ceromony you still have to have a license issued by the State.  No religious leader can issue you a license, only the state can.  Some people just go straight to the state and forgo religious rites alltogether.  Is there a legal difference? 

This is where I believe there can be compromise.  I believe the GBLT community should leave the word “marriage” alone.  Go straight to the legal heart of the matter and fight for a civil union.  I mean the whole point is to get the same legal rights as a heterosexual couple right?  Who cares if us religious folk don’t agree with the “sanctity” of what you legally want to have.  I don’t agree with many things that are legal, some don’t agree with my disagreement, but that’s what America’s all about.  We don’t have to agree on anything ever, but as long as we have the same rights, we can agree to disagree. 

And that is something I think we can all agree with.

Related Article:

Los Angeles stops issuing marriage licenses to gay couples

Gay couples disappointed by Calif. marriage ban

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14 Comments

  1. This is coming from heterosexual man: The human race takes a big step forward by electing a black man president; only to take jsut as big of a step backward by discriminating against another group. The irony is that I hear that the black vote is what really helped to ban gay marriage in California. It’s amazing how ignorant people can be.

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  2. If the vote matters any at all, thousands have spoken on this issue. The vote is in.
    Does the vote matter or not.
    We the people.
    Do we let one judge decide everything for us? Is the vote now up for debate?

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  3. You hit the nail on the head with this post.

    I’m very dissapointed that so many people have voted against the civil rights of a minority, and in effect, discriminated against them.

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  4. I see what ur saying, but democracy means that the majority of the people decide and if the majority are against it then that is how it should be. Furthermore you cannot have this idea that either we implement all religious rules or have none. Also this is not about civil rights. Marriage is not a right it is a privalege, it is a religious institution. And if we as you say get rid of all religious concepts or rulings in the United States then Marriage should not be recognized by the Government for anyone.

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  5. Subhan’Allah. Amazing post.

    For me, one of the biggest issues aside from what you mentioned is that denying any group civil rights affects all minority groups – including Muslims. We have to stand up for each other’s rights, otherwise we will be trampled. If other groups do not stand up for the rights of GLBT Americans, how can we expect for non-Muslims to stand up for our rights? This idea that civil rights should only apply to certain people in certain places at certain times is wrong, no matter who is under fire.

    For me this is really personal as I identify as pansexual. I am capable of, and did actively before my conversion, form relationships (and am attracted to) people regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity. Many of my close friends and family are GLBT or allied. Now, because of my faith, I only choose to form relationships with men, but for me, my sexual orientation is a part of who I am and something I’ve not had anymore control over than I do my biological sex or my skin color…so it doesn’t just “go away” because my newfound religious beliefs have given me a different worldview.

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  6. This entry well-written and sophisticated entry; it expresses objectively what I couldn’t get over my feelings and say.

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  7. Paul, I believe democracy is about the people deciding what the government can do in terms of how its actions affect all of us. Democracy IS NOT about Group A deciding the entire life path of Group B when Group B’s only real crime is being different–they are not assaulting Group A, they are not harming any other group, just being different.

    We can argue all day long about the spiritual implications of homosexuality, and some of us do, but in the end only the individual whose soul is in question has any business deciding to make it healthy or not healthy.

    “We the people” did not have the right to deny the franchise to over half of American citizens. “We the people” did not have the right to destroy Native American culture. “We the people” did not have the right to own slaves. “We the people” do not have the right, although we do apparently have the audacity, to claim the Constitution is the law of the land and yet to deny Fourteenth Amendment rights to consenting, unrelated adults to become legally united with one another.

    I don’t want “we the people” being able to decide things like that. Next they’ll be telling me I’m not allowed to marry a black man, should I ever decide that’s what I want to do. Oh, wait…

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  8. Perhaps the government should not have gotten involved in marriage in the first place- it’s caused any amount of headache since marriage became regulated by the state. It does very little good- folk looking to skirt the law do so anyway- and loads of inconvenience.

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  9. I agree with your take. Ultimately, I believe that the actions denying GLBT people their full rights will be found unconstitutional. The changes we have witnessed with the election of Barak Obama and the changes to come is just one of many waves of growth that will finally bring GLBT people into the family of full citizenship. I was distressed to learn that there was not much outreach to the Black community in California. It seems to meet that such meetings are a requirement for future efforts.

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  10. Very well thought out piece. I agree with you on the basis for being a Democratic government.

    The only problem with the issue of wording, “civil union” v “marriage” is that you may end up in the grey area of “separate but equal.” Remember the separate bathrooms, water fountains, etc that African Americans had to use 50 years ago. They were still water fountains – people had the same right to get their drinking water, but using a separate spout. Was that OK?

    It’s not full equality until you get the wording as well. It’s a sticky, grey area but one that may cause problems down the road.

    Nice article!

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  11. Subhannaa Alllah. I am surprised that you have fallen for this civil rights presentation. Gay marriage is not an has never been a civil rights issue. The government has an absolute right to limit marriage any way it wants according to the will of the people and will continue to do so even if people are given the right to marry the same gender. It will still control the number of partners, the age of partners, the relationships(brother/sister; mother/sister; etc.) of partners, etc. To follow this out on the grounds of civil rights, you would have to remove all those barriers. Are you prepared to see this through to its logical conclusion? If you do, marriage will no longer mean anything at all.
    Allah subhanna wa ta’Allah gave me a mind to think and a code to live by and the government that my ancestors fought hard to establish and preserve gave me one vote. I am prepared to use that vote every time the issue comes up to preserve the sanctity of marriage according to His plan. This is the only way to uphold the civil rights of our children who deserve to be born within the bounds of marriage, with a known father and mother, who honor their marital vows and help each other as equal partners.

    Marriage between a man and a women is available to anyone who wants it. It is not discriminatory. Any man or woman.. lesbian, gay or trans-gender is free to marry anyone of an opposite gender when ever they want. They are not limited by society only by their own choices. The law is the same for every individual.

    Very sad that you have bought this whole civil rights issue.

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  12. Dear Sister Nancy,

    By your own posting you prove my point. The issue is about choices and who gets to determine what choices are right and or wrong. My point is not about religious faith, outlook, or ideology, but about what is legally right or wrong. Legally, speaking, the faith, outlook, practice, or lack there of concerning law-abiding, tax-paying, citizens, should not be a determination of their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as outlined in our Declaration of Independece which stated the above as inalienable and God-given.

    As Muslims, we must recognize that our very text informs us that Allah (swt) grants the ability of choice to His creation. Only under certain circumstances and/or roles is man ever allowed to enforce or govern in a way that supercedes and individuals choice with their own. America does not fit any of those criteria. It is not a Theocracy, Islamic State, nor ruled by an Amir, Sultan, or Khalifah.

    As such, as written, the law states that all Americans should be afforded the same legal rights as any other American regardless of what rites they choose or don’t choose to believe, practice, etc.

    We can believe about marriage and the nature of the world in anyway we want, but that still does not give us the LEGAL right to impose that on other Americans because they CHOOSE to not agree.

    In America, a hetero-sexual couple could as my Grandma used to call “shack up” for many years. If one of the partners die after so many years, we call that common law marriage and they are afforded the same rights as if they were actually married in the first place. Yet, if a homo-sexual couple does the same thing, they are given no rights, because “we” don’t agree with the way they choose to live their lives.

    I’m sorry, I’m going to have to continue to respectfully disagree with my religious community on this, because while the religious argument is persuasive, the legal argument is not, primarily because our law doesn’t give a flying flip about our religion or any religion for that matter, because no one group or individuals practices, beliefs, or traditions, should ever supercede another’s in the context of governance.

    I have not fallen for the “civil rights trap” I am merely stating a known Constitutional fact. Just as it was not right to legislate based on ones skin color, it isn’t right to legislate based on one’s religion, practice, sexuality, relationships, etc. Either we are going to have equal protections and rights under the law or we are not. Either justice is going to be blind, or she is not.

    As a Muslim, I can’t support any law that would distinguish against a community based on their practice regardless of my religious ideology, because what is next? How long before the unaccepted beliefs and practices of Islam are now legislated against.

    How comfortable would we be when they start saying Arabs can’t legally marry or Muslims can’t legally do this or that because this is a “Christian” country.

    Separation of Church and State must be protected less the very ones supporting it’s breakdown could soon have it used against them.

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  13. First of all, one should not speak about the Religion in ignorance. Secondly, there is no obedience to a creation that entails disobedience to the Creator. All forms of sinning should be condemned, and they should not be accepted in the name of so-called “tolerance.” Very simple principle here: Muslims are obligated to order the good and forbid the evil. The Prophet said:

    “If one sees an evil, he is obligated to change by hand; if incapable, he must speak against if; if incapable, he must denounce the transgression in his heart.”

    Obviously, Muslims cannot physically prevent the evil of homosexuality in this society for various legal reasons–but Muslims can speak out against this abhorrent sin. Furthermore, the weak logic employed that “Muslims” should support other “minorities” (in their sins) simply because they are minorities, has no basis in common sense, much less in Shar`. The homosexuals don’t merely wish to get “married,” they don’t want people speaking out against them them, lest one be charged with so-called hate crimes. Well, Islam EXPLICITLY condemns homosexuality. Islamic is anti-homosexual–and according to the logic of the fagophiles, Muslims are collectively guilty of hate crimes for hating homosexuality.

    No one has the “right” to do a wrong. Sodomy/homosexuality is a wrong–among the greatest of wrongs. Following the ill-logic of the sodomite lobby, there is no reason that a man cannot marry his son–or marry a cadaver–or marry a goat. “Marriage”–by the very definition of the word–is a contract between people of the opposite sex. Folks need to fear Allah and not advocate things that oppose what Allah revealed.

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  14. There are many many GLBT Muslims. We are not accepted by Allah? He made us, so He knows best who we are. I just don’t accept the interpretation that Homosexuality is wrong.

    The Islamic value that has been supported over and over is fidelity to one’s spouse,  in the garmet of marriage. Allah puts love for another individual in our hearts. Thus GLBT marriage is in the tenents of Islam.

    Muslims today have to open their view of GLBT people. The faith needs progressive changes, or it will loose the youth.

    InshaAllah I hope everyone can pray on this and see the challenges aren’t bad but good. The narrow interpretation is exclusive. I believe Allah SWT wants us to grow as a faith and become INCLUSIVE.

    Thank you for considering my perspective.

    Reply

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